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     Combined reginol points

    ADO Informationchadjohnson writes "The ADO has needed to change the way reginol points are handed out, in the past years regions have been allowed to combine and include large numbers of dart players, creating false point totals to winners, when I played regular I won most all the reginol tournaments, but would receive less points than winners in other area's, this would offset the true top players for the year.

    All winners should receive the same number of points, with a huge difference in regions, no player deserves more points for the same performance."

    "Combined reginol points" | Login/Create an Account | 26 comments | Search Discussion
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    Re: Combined reginol points (Score: 1)
    by supabull on Saturday, January 31 @ 10:33:24 CST
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    I'm not following what you're trying to say... can you elaborate?

    I think it's fair that more points are given to winners in more populated regions that typically have to come through a larger field of competitors to win. I'm sure winning a regional here in WA isn't the same as winning one back East.

    Re: Combined reginol points (Score: 1)
    by ChadJohnson on Tuesday, February 03 @ 13:20:05 CST
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    If you have 4 bracketts of 8-8-8-8 and 2 players from each brackett advances to a final brackett of 8, 4 players out of the final 8 advance to the national finals, thats a 50% chance.

    If you have 12 players, 2 braketts-6-6, 2 from each brackett advance to the final 4, only one player advances to the National finals, thats a 25%.

    Not only do you have twice as much % chance of winning, you receive 100% more ranking points, its really done completely opposite of what the skill level would dictate


    Re: Combined reginol points (Score: 1)
    by mretome ( on Tuesday, February 03 @ 07:21:57 CST
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    I am not sure what a Regional looks like in a smaller region. I can tell you that in 5-3 we frequently get 25-30 shooters for the men's bracket. That breaks out into 3 or 4 round robin brackets with usually the top two from each bracket going into a finals bracket for another round robin to determine a winner. So after 5-6 hours and 30-40 games we finally get a winner and he definitely deserves the points he gets for that performance.

    Re: Combined reginol points (Score: 1)
    by Erik on Friday, July 21 @ 10:52:50 CDT
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    In ADO Region 1-2 we used to get 8 players most times with the occasional time we'd get 10-12.


    Re: Combined reginol points (Score: 1)
    by SLEEPYKRAMER on Friday, February 06 @ 23:23:44 CST
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    Well my biggest beef has always been the amount of points...period. When a player can win 4 regionals with 8 players only each time and earn a total combined point total of 196, when in 1985, the men's US #1 for the year ended the year with only 190 points.

    It seems to have become more of a token to be given away rather than something truly earned. Heck, I could win all 4 regionals in a year and be ranked one of the top 50 women in the US. Does that mean I really am one of the top 50 women players in the US right now? Hardly.

    Great conversation starter, Chad....just might end up being the most commented on article on SEWA soon!

    Re: Combined reginol points (Score: 1)
    by ChadJohnson on Saturday, February 07 @ 13:48:48 CST
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    I first played in the ADO in 1978, recently from 1994-2000, while winning almost every reginol I noticed others were getting 120+ points more than I was for winning the same events, I agree, if the ADO wanted to have real rankings they would look at the broken system, not that being at the top is worth anything, it just puts a bullseye on your back.


    Re: Combined reginol points (Score: 1)
    by habanerojooz on Tuesday, February 03 @ 12:58:37 CST
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    I disagree.

    Why should somebody who wins a regional with 10 players be awarded the same number of points as the person who wins a regional with 28 players?

    The performance doesn't seem the same to me.

    Winning (or placing in) a Regional event with a small field is great. Winning (or placing in) a Regional event with a big field is great. Both are great, but they are not equal IMO.

    Perhaps Brownie will chime in and enlighten us with his view on this.

    Re: Combined reginol points (Score: 1)
    by ChadJohnson on Tuesday, February 03 @ 13:07:51 CST
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    Its alot easier to qualify for the national finals when 4-5 players make it then it is to play 12 players and only one person gets to qualify, it's alot harder to be the only winner then it is to be one of 4-5, why should 4-5 people get first place points?? the single winner should be awarded far more, its alot harder.


    Re: Combined reginol points (Score: 1)
    by mretome ( on Tuesday, February 03 @ 14:26:59 CST
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    1st place is the only one that gets first place points. If 4 players advance to the Nationals they get 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th place points.


    Re: Combined reginol points (Score: 1)
    by ChadJohnson on Tuesday, February 03 @ 21:02:40 CST
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    Thats true, I am talking mostly about the difficulty in making the national trip, ONE winner reginols should award more points to the winner than regions that have combined, I know from years of experience, its much harder to win the trip when only one spot is available, if you won with 12 people you got 48 points, if you finished 3rd with 40 people you got atleast the same or more, the concept is it doesn't matter how many 8 person bracketts the yhave, you still only play the other 7 people in your brackett, having more people is a plus, not a minus, some folks think if you have more intrants its more difficult, thats completely not true, its much easier to win the national trip with 40 people, then with 12, i was merely using the point totals to show how a person shooting in a 3 combined region playoff could win a trip, get more points for 3rd, then a guy that was a solo winner.


    Re: Combined reginol points (Score: 1)
    by mretome ( on Wednesday, February 04 @ 16:05:26 CST
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    I see where you are missing the point now. A player in a larger region doesn't simply play 7 others in their bracket and advance to the Nationals. As I stated earlier, there is a second round robin (at the Regional) that determines which 2, 3, 4, etc advance to the Nationals. So a shooter in 5-3 for instance, with 30 players showing up may shoot one round-robin with 6 or 7 other players only to face a second round-robin (the Regional Finals) with the 6 or 7 players from the other first rounds before they "win" the opportunity to go to the Nationals.


    Re: Combined reginol points (Score: 1)
    by ChadJohnson on Wednesday, February 04 @ 17:47:09 CST
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    I played in many of these from 1993-2000, winning most, there are only 2 rounds played, the way it usually goes is like this, top 2 players out of 8 advance to the final brackett, if you have 32 players, 4 bracketts of 8 will play, 2 players from each brackett will advance to the final bracket of 8 where 4 players go to the national finals, your not getting something, I have tried to make it clear, it is far more difficult to win with only 2- 6 man brackets with top 2 from each going to a final of 4 players, then only 1 player makes the national finals, if you haven't been involved in the format you might struggle to see what I mean, I wasn't asking a question, I was stating a fact.


    Re: Combined reginol points (Score: 1)
    by mretome ( on Thursday, February 05 @ 09:23:24 CST
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    I am very much involved in the format as I am currently the regional director of 5-3. And fact, it is much harder to maintain your focus and level of play across 42 games of 501 and take 4th in the second round robin than it is across 24 games to take 1st.


    Re: Combined reginol points (Score: 1)
    by ChadJohnson on Tuesday, February 03 @ 13:08:53 CST
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    Steve will understand what i mean


    Re: Combined reginol points (Score: 1)
    by chunky on Tuesday, February 03 @ 22:40:46 CST
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    Sorry Chad, while I do feel that too many points are awarded for Regional play, I have to agree with what others have said.

    As with tournaments, he quality of a Regional field will vary, and so will the balance of the brackets. However, why should a player from a smaller, and quite possibly weaker Region (as has been mentioned, ie somewhere like WA) receive as many points as someone who has qualified from a much larger, and usually more competitive, Regional?

    Would you suggest that the winner of a $2,000 bar shoot is awarded the same points as a player winning the singles in Virginia Beach or Las Vegas? It may be a different format, but it's the same scenario.


    Re: Combined reginol points (Score: 1)
    by ChadJohnson on Monday, February 09 @ 18:53:47 CST
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    I would suggest that the ADO doesn't allow regions to combine the reginol shoots, for example, in the South east regions alot of times in the 1990's they combined and had 50-60 people shooting, sending 6-7 to the East-West Allstar shoot, forst would get 80 points, completely unfair to other players, as for singles, ihave played in $2000 that had 6 of the top 12 players in the Country involved, the ADO needs to follow more of the old PDC rules, 10 points was awarded for a win, having more bodies doesn't make the tournament more difficult, the same goes for reginol points, these should not count on the National schene anyway, a player in a region that is allowed to combine with 2 other area's gets an abnormal amount of points being handed out to players, they play the same amount of matches.


    Re: Combined reginol points (Score: 1)
    by chunky on Tuesday, February 10 @ 13:20:49 CST
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    > >I would suggest that the ADO doesn't allow
    > >regions to combine the reginol shoots

    So, referring back to one of my earlier posts, you hen think it's perfectly acceptable that a player (or players) is prohibited from competing in a Regional, just because there aren't enough other players to complete the field?

    I'm in a a very tough Region here, alongside Brad Wethington. Sure, we usually (but certainly not always) qualify, but what would happen if the others in our Region said that they weren't going to play Regionals if we were there? Do you think that is right?

    As I said, certainly in my Area, Regionals are not combined in order to accumulate points; they are used as a way to get players playing. We may not have enough women for our 6-2 Masters regional next month, so those two or three players who are eager to play WILL be allowed to play in a neighboring Region. There is nothing wrong in that when people want to play.

    I agree with what you are saying about the size of a tournament does not necessarily make it weaker or stronger, but the early PDC events consisted of a regular groups of the same players. That doesn't happen here. You can have five tournaments with the same prize money and and same amount of players, but with totally different players of totally different skill levels.

    I have also said that I feel that there are too many points awarded for Regional play. Personally, what I would like to see for the National Rankings is say, the best 20 sets of tournament points, and the best two Regional performances.



    Re: Combined reginol points (Score: 1)
    by ChadJohnson on Tuesday, February 10 @ 14:44:09 CST
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    Reginol points are still used to determine overall ranking of players, in the 1990's when I played regularly this was a problem, certain players received between 80-120 more points per year, not based on skill, just on the size of the field, many times over a 4 year period my region only had 12-14 men shooting, most of the time only one person advanced , sometimes two, our region was very tough and players wouldn't sign up to participate, I was awarded far less points overall but had to perform at a very high level, when 4-5 players advance to the Nationals its alot easier. I would also say allowing reginol points to count as national points is rediculous, it creates a false ranking for the national team, when finishing 7th one year idid some research and found the players that were allowed to shoot in regions that were combined with 1 or 2 other regions, these players were awarded so many more points fro the same or lessor performance, try playing a 10 man round robin where only one person survives, then play a 100 man round robin where 10 survive, the better player as an easier time of it with more entries, the ADO rewards the easier time with more points.

    Tournament points should be awarded accordingly, players bracketts should be seeded, its crazy to draw bracketts and have the #2 player play the #3 player in the first round, then have 2 guys that are C players make top 8, many times in the 1990's all of us top players were drawn against each other in the early rounds, it mattered not to me, I won my share of singles but it really throws off any type of clear ranking system. I would put myself top 5 atleast in any year as a singles player, I played far less tournaments then some, thats my fault but the regional system should NOT count toward national ranking, its flawed


    Re: Combined reginol points (Score: 1)
    by supabull on Wednesday, February 04 @ 01:35:31 CST
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    Chad, thanks for clarifying. So if I now understand what you're saying it's that larger regions send more players to the national finals by virtue of their size (1 for every 8 participants), and that in a sense dilutes the difficulty (or, gives one a better chance) of advancing to the finals, therefore it isn't right to award these players more points than a player who comes through a smaller field that has less of a chance of advancing to the finals...

    What do points do other than ranking? Once you make the finals you have a one-in-whatever chance of winning just like everyone else... Just win the games in front of you and you're champ!

    The only scenario I can see as unfair is if someone from WA, for example, advances to and wins each of the national finals, yet still finishes behind someone from back East in the national point standings because the WA player came through smaller fields in their region each time. Is this possible (theoretically, anyway)?

    Re: Combined reginol points (Score: 1)
    by ChadJohnson on Wednesday, February 04 @ 06:28:37 CST
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    My point was only to show large fields of entrants can make the day easier to move on to the national finals, folks that finish in lower positions can be awarded more national points then winners in small fields, I was only try to show this as a flaw, back when I played regular the ADO used to allow 2-3 regions to combine the playoff, at the end of the year when the national team is made up, players in these area's had been awarded anywhere from 60-120 more points for reginol qualifiers then anyone else, I am simply stating that gave a false result, where as I won all 4 reginols but ended up with far less points, its just a faulty system, was my point.


    Re: Combined reginol points (Score: 1)
    by chunky on Wednesday, February 04 @ 22:15:54 CST
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    In the majority of cases, only two Regions are combined - except for maybe one or two odd individuals, and is usually done when there aren't enough players to have a Regional of their own.

    I know what you are saying, but to those players who want to compete in a Regional, but can't get enough fellow competitors to show, do you simply want to say, "tough"?



    Re: Combined reginol points (Score: 1)
    by habanerojooz on Wednesday, February 04 @ 20:21:54 CST
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    I understand your beef about it now.

    I've been playing ADO Regionals since '90. I have no problem understanding where you are coming from.

    My suggested solution would be to change the rules as follows:

    - Award no ADO points for playing in a Regional
    - Award no ADO points for playing in a National
    - Award only ADO points to the players who make the National Team
    - Continue to award ADO points for tournament finishes as they do today.

    Re: Combined reginol points (Score: 1)
    by chunky on Wednesday, February 04 @ 22:11:03 CST
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    > >My suggested solution would be to change the > >rules as follows:

    > >Award no ADO points for playing in a Regional
    > >Award no ADO points for playing in a National
    > >Award only ADO points to the players who make the National Team

    Changes, Donny? No points are awarded for playing in a National.

    As far as not awarding points for Regionals, points are all we can offer. Most players who compete in Regionals don't travel much, and Regionals are their only realistic way of seeing themselves in the rankings. However, these players have little or no impact on the Nayional Rankings.

    Awarding points only to those who make the National Team will, in many people's eyes, simply be another in the list of things that the ADO does in order to assist the "select few".



    Re: Combined reginol points (Score: 1)
    by habanerojooz on Thursday, February 05 @ 08:50:22 CST
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    Yes Steve, I knew you'd hop on a clean up after me with the first shot. LOL. I offered a solution which got to the crux of the beef on Regional points. I should have just said, eliminate Regional points.

    I recognize the point that you make too.

    Some others in the past have spoken about Regionals ..... i.e. you can basically buy the Regional points by paying the $110 entry fee for the Regional, as opposed to qualifying for it. It's not like that is a good value or anything, but those who cannot afford that, have made comments about that.

    Sometimes I pay my way in, not because I cannot qualify locally, but because of my work schedule. Also, local qualifiers dates often are mentioned at the last minute and I cannot show up. It probably makes a few people happy that I'm not there.

    Unless you are at, or near, the very top of the ADO rankings, ADO points seem to offer mostly personal value. If I don't ever see my name again in the rankings, I won't sweat it. For me, points are a byproduct of performance, but they're not a true measure of anything that I personally value.

    I have no goals to be Top 5 ADO. To do that would require more personal time and money to achieve, for something which has little value. And it only lasts for that year, then you start over....the way it should be...but how much did it cost you for that year to attain that ranking....and what did you get for it in the end?

    But stuff like this, I normally keep to myself, unless I'm in a conversation like this, then I'll speak frankly about it from a personal point of view.

    Hope to see you in Austin Steve. Drive safe if you are coming down.


    Re: Combined reginol points (Score: 1)
    by supabull on Thursday, February 05 @ 12:03:10 CST
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    Chad, I think everyone's clear on your point since you've articulated it well. Thanks. Being from a less populated region I can empathize with you, but it is what it is however flawed it may be to you. From my perspective out here, there will always be more and bigger tournaments back East, so there will always be more ranking points available to be awarded. I can't control that other than picking up and moving. But, what I can control is how well I do once I can advance to the next level. Once you make a national final you are still in control of your own destiny regardless of whether someone from another region got more points for finishing 4th in their playoff than the points you got for finishing 1st in yours.

    Winning the games in front of you will take care of everything, points be damned.

    As Al Davis says, "Just win, baby!"

    Re: Combined reginol points (Score: 1)
    by ChadJohnson on Thursday, February 05 @ 18:37:07 CST
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    Thanks for your input, like I said on the first thread, I am just pointing out the poor structure the ADO offers as a national ranking, I understand the reasoning behind it, getting more entrants is more money for the sport, winning was never difficult, just want to discuss how the point ranking system can be made more true.


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